John Williams

[RRA]

So this thread idea came from the SW Ep 7 news thread, where we're discussing/debating about the 81 year old legendary film composer coming back...well not coming back since he's been with SW since the very beginning, but more like stay on. What astounds me is reading online people honestly seriously suggesting that he needs to be sent off to the retirement home in favor of Michael Giacchino, who J.J. Abrams has employed for his movies.

No offense to Michael G., he's great, love his shit. I'm sure he would do terrific with SW. But...he's not John Williams. And that's just my nostalgia reeking its ugly head. Plus unless I missed something, Williams is still working and still doing good stuff, even at his age. To ignore that reeks of ageism. Whatever one thought of the SW Prequels, Williams did stellar music for them in spite of everything else. I'll admit his work on LINCOLN was forgettable, but TINTIN? Terrific. Who knows, maybe Disney/Abrams will do what some folks are clamoring for, and have Williams and Giacchino collaborate? We'll wait and see. Somebody in that SW thread mentioned that Williams has said that he would like to score more movies, but people don't call him. That idea, if its true, just baffles me. I'm sorry but it does. Why wouldn't people want Williams if they could get him to score their films?

Meanwhile lets celebrate one of the greatest film composers, arguably the best ever. (Honestly I might still have Hermann over him, but that's my prejudice.) I'll start off with very much underrated work he did for the (solid) Brian DePalma movie THE FURY.

[Artimus]

I love Williams but he's not unflawed. His themes are legendary but many of his scores lack the same depth other composers have. Not that I mean to imply NONE do, as many are very, very deep and rich.

[RRA]

I love Williams but he's not unflawed.

Nobody is "unflawed." Even the Beatles occasionally fucked the dog. (Its like using the duller than dishwater NEW POWER SOUL against Prince in general.)

but many of his scores lack the same depth other composers have.

Like what? I'm not saying you're wrong, but which scores come to mind for you as coming short asides from the themes?

[Blasty]

I have not heard all his scores and most of my blind spots are from the last 15 years or so, but I've never been dissapointed by any of the scores I have heard. An example of a surprising score from him that is terrific is Alfred Hitchcock's last film, Family Plot. It's so completely different than anything else he has ever done and it's light and fun and just wicked.

[Dent]

I, too, am quite curious to hear Arti's list.

From 1975 to 1984, Williams is basically the king of film scoring. Every single one of those is an out-of-the-ballpark success, including more "off-beat" scores for Williams like the above-cited Family Plot and The Fury. And all his Spielberg collaborations and Star Wars score are outright classics - even 1941 (a massively under-rated, incredibly fun score that's probably one of the best "comedy" scores ever written). Plus Superman, which is probably my all-time favorite main theme of his. Since then, he hasn't had quite as strong a track record while still doing some of his most interesting work (2001-2002 is an interesting period: while Minority Report and Potter 2 aren't great scores, Ep. II and the first Potter are pretty damn solid, and both AI and Catch Me if You Can are fantastic and fairly unique in his career).

One thing I miss about latter-day Williams in terms of his scoring is how effectively he used to do leitmotifs for specific scenes - not even just for characters (Christ, even Jabba the Hutt or the Jawas have their own themes in the OT - and they're great), but how he would focus, say, the truck chase from Raiders on two or three motifs, with the Indiana Jones theme counterpointing the more rhythmic, climbing Nazi motifs:


That really gave those sequences a tremendous sense of progression. You can really track the ebb and flow of the sequence through his music He doesn't seem to do that quite as often any more (Kingdom of the Crystal Skull didn't really have this outside from the ants sequence, which was a great old-school track, while the one Tintin track that really had this was the expanded sword-duel music - arguably the best action track he'd written in years).

As a composer, while he's best known for his marches, Williams does have a pretty terrific sense of wit - the 1941 score is dripping with it, and his lusher, more romantic music is wonderfully old-school (the instrumental version of the flying scene from Superman is probably the best example of it - it's so grand and sweeping that it's difficult not to get caught up in it). His wit is most prevalent in those early Star Wars and Spielberg collaborations, but you can absolutely feel Williams' enjoyment of what he's doing in every note - and, most of the time, his sense of humor and fun as well. The Imperial March is fantastically whimsical while still being menacing. There's a glorious sense of pomp to the piece that puts it over the standard evil theme.


Williams gets especially interesting when he goes more serious. Superman, of all films, contains some of the more intriguing examples of that. His Krypton themes have an almost biblical grandeur to them - the music for when Jor-El and Lara say goodbye to Kal-El would not be inappropriate for the placing of Moses in the bulrushes. He treats it as a sacred moment, full of sorrow and hope (starting at 3:58 in the video and going through to 5:38):



It's probably the most unexpectedly moving moment in all his scoring - up until then he'd primarily used very strange, atonal sounds and cold, minor motifs to designate Krypton's coming destruction and inhumanity (though the actual Krypton theme used in the previous track and - in one of Williams' crowning moments of glory and one of the ten best tracks he's ever written - the Fortress of Solitude track - is magnificent), but the building warmth of that sequence is so unexpectedly rich that it's goosebump-inducing.

There's a lot more I could say on the subject of Williams (his scores for Close Encounters, Jaws, and E.T. certainly merit some discussion here, as do JFK, A.I., CMIYC, and Schindler), but for now I'll just close out by saying that the man's work can't just reduced to coming up with catchy leitmotifs. Like him or not, Williams is a hugely important part of filmic history and he earned that position. There's a damn good reason that Lucas considered Williams' work more important than dialogue in the telling of the Star Wars story and, in the end, his work speaks for itself better than I ever could:

[Blasty]

Brilliant post, Dent!

I just wanted to point out that Williams was not really able to complete Harry Potter 2's score, since I saw you mentioned it. At least not in his normal fashion. As per IMDB:

Due to schedule conflicts, John Williams was not able to deliver a fully elaborated score. Composer-arranger William Ross was hired to adapt Williams' material to complete the film's score and was subsequently conducting the orchestra during the recording sessions.

Despite that, I actually really love what Ross did with Williams' work, I have to say! There's a real sense of haunting menace in alot of the cues that I think on from time to time. It's also a much more subdued score compared to Harry Potter 1.

[Dent]

Heh, yeah, I probably should've noted that. It's incredible to think that, in a period of a year and a half, Williams scored six films (or five and a half, with Ross's involvement in CoS) - the two Potters, Ep. II, AI, Minority Report, and Catch Me if You Can. And two of those are among his best latter-day works.

And thanks!

[Elliott?]

He didn't write it obviously, but his adaptation of the score to Fiddler on the Roof is probably one of my favorite Oscars wins...ever?

[Bremen]

I know Williams is famous for his bombastic, epic scores but this particular piece has always stood out to me as one of his best.

[Blasty]

Prisoner of Azkaban is a masterpiece of scoring. Understated eloquence that is brilliant. Shame he didn't win an Oscar for either Harry Potter 1 or 3. He really did deserve that 6th Oscar for one of these. Of course, he also should have won for Raiders, Empire and Superman, ect.

[Rage Colored Glasses]

This thread made me remember when I did a project on him for my 8th grade music class. Good times.

[Blasty]

How about, how brilliant is this and it's just an Olympics Theme!!?!?!



Like, I have tears in my eyes just listening to it again and I've heard it before.

[Largo]

The man basically scored every film I ever loved in my childhood - Harry Potter, Star Wars, Indiana Jones... It'd be hard for me to give an unbiased look at any of his works. But every time I hear Hedwig's Theme, I cry.

[Bremen]

Prisoner of Azkaban is a masterpiece of scoring. Understated eloquence that is brilliant. Shame he didn't win an Oscar for either Harry Potter 1 or 3. He really did deserve that 6th Oscar for one of these. Of course, he also should have won for Raiders, Empire and Superman, ect.

When people tell me they prefer Patrick Doyle's work for Goblet of Fire I just. Can't. Understand. It.

One thing I've noticed from some of these clips posted here is that Williams really knows how to write for the French Horn.

[Blasty]

When people tell me they prefer Patrick Doyle's work for Goblet of Fire I just. Can't. Understand. It.

One thing I've noticed from some of these clips posted here is that Williams really knows how to write for the French Horn.

It took two viewings for me to fall in love with Doyle's score for Goblet of Fire - the first time I was just too upset that it wasn't Williams themes we were hearing that much of but new themes, but I have to say, Doyle's score has an epic, kingly grandeur all it's own once you give it a chance - it really is great unlike the hack that followed him for the next couple of Potter flicks before Alexander Desplat finally restored some musical order to the series.

[Artimus]

I prefer Doyle's work to any of Williams' HP scores except #1, because that is a wonderful score that deserve such a better movie. #3 might be more accomplished but the best parts remain the themes and those aren't original to that film. Doyle gets the British feel that no other composer could manage.

[Bremen]

It took two viewings for me to fall in love with Doyle's score for Goblet of Fire - the first time I was just too upset that it wasn't Williams themes we were hearing that much of but new themes, but I have to say, Doyle's score has an epic, kingly grandeur all it's own once you give it a chance - it really is great unlike the hack that followed him for the next couple of Potter flicks before Alexander Desplat finally restored some musical order to the series.

I've given it a listen but it's never done anything for me. Honestly, I've tried but I can't remember a single melody from the entire thing.

[Artimus]

[Blasty]

To that, I will add:



Plus:



Not to make this a Patrick Doyle thread LOL But he really is a great, unsung composer - one of my faves - I mean, Henry V, Dead Again, Much Ado About Nothing, Carlito's Way, Sense and Sensibility are some of my fave scores ever.

[Bremen]

Not my kind of music, unfortunately.

It's cute, but insubstantial and does nothing for me emotionally. I do like the instruments he used though.

If I had to describe Williams' work as a whole with just one word I would probably use "magical." He evokes that sense of wonder, child like innocence and joy in so many of my faves from him, like Jurassic Park, Harry Potter, E.T. even Home Alone and Hook. Of course, I also love his more serious scores like Schindler's List.

Edit: I was referring to the clip Artimus posted.